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	<title>Comments on: My Advice to Tree-Sitters: Negotiate!</title>
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	<link>http://photonzero.com/blog/2007/11/18/my-advice-to-tree-sitters-negotiate/</link>
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		<title>By: BradyDale</title>
		<link>http://photonzero.com/blog/2007/11/18/my-advice-to-tree-sitters-negotiate/comment-page-1/#comment-118</link>
		<dc:creator>BradyDale</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Dec 2007 00:11:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://photonzero.com/blog/2007/11/18/my-advice-to-tree-sitters-negotiate/#comment-118</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;No one is more willing to criticize liberal activism than me. I&#039;m a liberal activist myself, and my fellow travelers in this world often frustrate me... but if there is one group that my sympathies tend to overbalance in favor of, it&#039;s the environmentalist fringe.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;(((I&#039;m in the anti-poverty world of liberal activism, fyi)))&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;It&#039;s no great surprise that tree activists equate trees with humans. Very real genocide is going on against trees. They don&#039;t want any more trees to fall. I don&#039;t really want them to, either. We&#039;ve paved more than enough land in the world to house all the humans and all the commerce we might want, so long as we&#039;re willing to tear up old pavement and start over again. there is no reason for another tree to ever fall down.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;But here&#039;s the heart of your point:
&quot;What I’m suggesting is that the tree-siters give up their threats and position for money and influence. Everybody wins, noone gets hurt, the building goes up in a legal way, and the tree sitters win a moral victory.&quot;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;One, I doubt they want money and influence. They want to save the freaking trees, right? And if they are showing an enduring campaign, it&#039;s because people like sustaining the ACTION. Believe me, all the supporters will fade away as soon as boring negotiations start. They have power there.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;and as soon as they become &quot;part of the process&quot; they&#039;ll be impotent. Believe me. They best they will be able to do is sit in at meetings and be slightly annoying. From that point, it&#039;s done. They&#039;ll have no clout. Their base will drift away. They could easily not save a single tree.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;If these activists are anything like activists I know, then there are two things going on here that you might not understand:
1) there&#039;s no real organization. This is just a cause that&#039;s gotten hot. When it goes away, all the structure around it will probably go away too, which means that any sort of long-term place at the table is pretty undesirable and won&#039;t do anyone any good. In fact, even if they won&#039;t admit this out loud, it&#039;s probably true and their smarter members probably know it.
2) Particularly in light of #1, they won&#039;t won&#039;t want a moral victory. They will want to save some trees.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;My guess is that they could really care less about the legal framework or freedom of speech or who&#039;s got a right on paper to what. They care about trees. Trees don&#039;t move easily, and if they are any sort of habitat, their dependent species REALLY don&#039;t move easily.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I say, more power to them. We&#039;ve killed way too many trees in this world already. It&#039;s sad that we have to worry about saving a random set of man planted trees, anyway, since trees alone are a shadow of what trees used to represent: wild spaces. forests. real ecosystems.&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No one is more willing to criticize liberal activism than me. I&#8217;m a liberal activist myself, and my fellow travelers in this world often frustrate me&#8230; but if there is one group that my sympathies tend to overbalance in favor of, it&#8217;s the environmentalist fringe.</p>
<p>(((I&#8217;m in the anti-poverty world of liberal activism, fyi)))</p>
<p>It&#8217;s no great surprise that tree activists equate trees with humans. Very real genocide is going on against trees. They don&#8217;t want any more trees to fall. I don&#8217;t really want them to, either. We&#8217;ve paved more than enough land in the world to house all the humans and all the commerce we might want, so long as we&#8217;re willing to tear up old pavement and start over again. there is no reason for another tree to ever fall down.</p>
<p>But here&#8217;s the heart of your point:<br />
&#8220;What I’m suggesting is that the tree-siters give up their threats and position for money and influence. Everybody wins, noone gets hurt, the building goes up in a legal way, and the tree sitters win a moral victory.&#8221;</p>
<p>One, I doubt they want money and influence. They want to save the freaking trees, right? And if they are showing an enduring campaign, it&#8217;s because people like sustaining the ACTION. Believe me, all the supporters will fade away as soon as boring negotiations start. They have power there.</p>
<p>and as soon as they become &#8220;part of the process&#8221; they&#8217;ll be impotent. Believe me. They best they will be able to do is sit in at meetings and be slightly annoying. From that point, it&#8217;s done. They&#8217;ll have no clout. Their base will drift away. They could easily not save a single tree.</p>
<p>If these activists are anything like activists I know, then there are two things going on here that you might not understand:<br />
1) there&#8217;s no real organization. This is just a cause that&#8217;s gotten hot. When it goes away, all the structure around it will probably go away too, which means that any sort of long-term place at the table is pretty undesirable and won&#8217;t do anyone any good. In fact, even if they won&#8217;t admit this out loud, it&#8217;s probably true and their smarter members probably know it.<br />
2) Particularly in light of #1, they won&#8217;t won&#8217;t want a moral victory. They will want to save some trees.</p>
<p>My guess is that they could really care less about the legal framework or freedom of speech or who&#8217;s got a right on paper to what. They care about trees. Trees don&#8217;t move easily, and if they are any sort of habitat, their dependent species REALLY don&#8217;t move easily.</p>
<p>I say, more power to them. We&#8217;ve killed way too many trees in this world already. It&#8217;s sad that we have to worry about saving a random set of man planted trees, anyway, since trees alone are a shadow of what trees used to represent: wild spaces. forests. real ecosystems.</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick</title>
		<link>http://photonzero.com/blog/2007/11/18/my-advice-to-tree-sitters-negotiate/comment-page-1/#comment-110</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Nov 2007 20:11:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://photonzero.com/blog/2007/11/18/my-advice-to-tree-sitters-negotiate/#comment-110</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;A most perceptive analysis; I couldn&#039;t agree more.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Unfortunately, the rhetoric people have to use to get motivated for such a protest is one which admits no compromise, and it&#039;s nigh impossible to stop that once it&#039;s started.  If the leaders of the tree-sitters agreed to some negotiation, the more radical members would simply brand them traitors and refuse to leave.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Mark my words: this is inevitably going to end in a violent incident.&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A most perceptive analysis; I couldn&#8217;t agree more.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, the rhetoric people have to use to get motivated for such a protest is one which admits no compromise, and it&#8217;s nigh impossible to stop that once it&#8217;s started.  If the leaders of the tree-sitters agreed to some negotiation, the more radical members would simply brand them traitors and refuse to leave.</p>
<p>Mark my words: this is inevitably going to end in a violent incident.</p>
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